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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Icecream Audit Office Electus Matari
739
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Posted - 2017.03.21 11:03:33 -
[1] - Quote
It's been almost ten years since Malaetu Shakor stepped into office as the Republic's prime minister (later 'Sanmatar').
While more patient minds cautioned against it, many clans supported him, because he made them promises of new glory, of a full-out war at last, the final throwing off our shackles. At his inaugural speech, he seemed confirm their hopes: "Sons and daughters of Matar, make no mistake about it. [---] Let it be known from this day forth that we are a race of warriors, not slaves, and that we will fight to the last drop of blood for what we hold dear."
Almost a decade. Not slaves but warriors.
And what do we have to show for it?
Oh, we have fought the Militia wars. We have even won it, for a short while, and some of us have metal to show for it. But where was the push on from that victory? The Empire was in turmoil, we held the field, slaves were returning and turning into warriors, and then what? Causing a controversy with his choice of companion and attire?
I am sure the slaves rejoiced and complimented his bravery.
Where is our war, Sanmatar Shakor?
Let the bridges we burn light the way.
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Icecream Audit Office Electus Matari
739
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Posted - 2017.03.21 12:04:50 -
[2] - Quote
Templar Thal Vadam wrote:Perhaps the leaders of our respective nations do not really desire a death toll in the hundreds of billions. This would be a fine argument, if the Sanmatar had not pretty much ran for office with the contrary opinion.
Let the bridges we burn light the way.
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Icecream Audit Office Electus Matari
739
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Posted - 2017.03.21 12:36:38 -
[3] - Quote
Utari Onzo wrote:Politicians say one thing to get into office, and do another when they get in. What a novel and new concept! So, your stance is, that since they do it anyway, we should not call them out on it?
Let the bridges we burn light the way.
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Icecream Audit Office Electus Matari
739
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Posted - 2017.03.21 12:41:54 -
[4] - Quote
Utari Onzo wrote:My stance is, is that it's a problem with the Republic's system of Governance, and therefore is your problem. On this, we are in complete agreement.
Let the bridges we burn light the way.
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Icecream Audit Office Electus Matari
739
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Posted - 2017.03.21 12:51:57 -
[5] - Quote
Louella Dougans wrote:Well, which is better ?
A politician that runs on a pro-war agenda, defeats all rival pro-war politicians and opposition to the idea of war, causes everyone to fall into line, and then doesn't act on that war agenda ?
Or, a politician that does act on that agenda ? It depends on whether that war would be justified and winnable.
Let the bridges we burn light the way.
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Icecream Audit Office Electus Matari
739
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Posted - 2017.03.21 13:08:53 -
[6] - Quote
Bjorn Tyrson wrote:Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote: It depends on whether that war would be justified and winnable.
And on both counts the answer here is no. so its probably for the best that this shakur fellow has stopped beating the war drums We could argue on those answers; I have always held yes for justified and I think we at least had a stellar opening last midyear and after. Might have botched it already, of course.
However, let's concentrate on your other point. What I find interesting about that is that when Shakor has stopped, so seems to have everyone else. When Midular was still in power, there were plenty of people calling out for the war. There were even those who were willing to engage in terrorism and incite a civil war over the issue. Where are all those people now? Was it, after all, never about fighting for freedom, but rather about seeing their man on the top?
Let the bridges we burn light the way.
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Icecream Audit Office Electus Matari
740
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Posted - 2017.03.21 13:20:18 -
[7] - Quote
Skyweir Kinnison wrote:The Sanmatar appears to be a dictator, in the sense that he wields largely untrammelled power with the consent of a docile tribal oligarchy.
Obviously, as a democrat, I consider this an unsatisfactory approach to running the Republic. Well said.
Let the bridges we burn light the way.
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Icecream Audit Office Electus Matari
740
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Posted - 2017.03.21 13:25:49 -
[8] - Quote
Bjorn Tyrson wrote:the calls for war have fallen silent because to continue them is to write our own funeral song. Nice theory. Only problem is that past record of common sense in that direction does not really support it.
Let the bridges we burn light the way.
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Icecream Audit Office Electus Matari
740
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Posted - 2017.03.21 13:28:14 -
[9] - Quote
Deitra Vess wrote:Where is our war? The moment has yet to come. Shakor is not stupid and won't drop us into a fire we will only blister in instead charr. Our war has not arrived yet leaving us with ample time to improve our art as warriors. Oh, wonderful.
This argument never flew two inches when the Ray of Matar was in power and did the exact same thing. Now when Shakor has promised to end that policy and bring a war, it suddenly is the best thing since sliced bread.
Let the bridges we burn light the way.
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Icecream Audit Office Electus Matari
740
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Posted - 2017.03.21 13:53:53 -
[10] - Quote
Why, such wonderful, pro-peace, moderate, patient answers!
And how delighted I would have been reading them, ten years ago, when it was I and mine who advocated for that stance, when we were constantly called traitors, collaborators, appeasers for it.
I'm sorry, but it is laughable to claim that when Shakor got into power with his pro-war cabinet, what resulted is that suddenly every warmonger in the galaxy simply saw the light and decided peace was best after all, nevermind about our kin in Darkness.
It is especially laughable considering that our odds are probably better now than they used to be, what with the Empire having gone through their repeated succession problems, and with technological advances.
Let the bridges we burn light the way.
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Icecream Audit Office Electus Matari
741
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Posted - 2017.03.21 14:08:46 -
[11] - Quote
Louella Dougans wrote:I don't think I agree with your assessment of your odds.
Especially now that Empress Catiz holds the throne. A lady who is known for her proficiency in industry and economics. I expect a substantial naval modernisation program will be one of Empress Catiz's policies in the coming years. Yea, like I said, possible we botched it already.
Shakor did not take the chance when he had it. Now the Empire has a competent leader, we have a self-styled backboneless 'Sanmatar' whose only accomplishment during his reign has been to ruin our century-old free government.
Now we are in fact losing ground every day, after decades of slow gains.
Soon it will be too late.
Let the bridges we burn light the way.
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Icecream Audit Office Electus Matari
741
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Posted - 2017.03.21 15:01:29 -
[12] - Quote
Deitra Vess wrote:You were not traitors back then, far from it. You were ahead of the curve and I hope you knew that back then. We did.
Quote:Also, don't take my words as peaceful in any way. We have less numbers, and atleast for a long time less materials, I don't know current details on where we stand. In order for us to triumph we NEED to be better than them in all accounts. Any less than better won't do. I'm sure I'm not the only one who wants the next war to be the last one we need to fight. That the longest time of peace for any nation that we once held to be a drop in the bucket compared to what comes of this. So, are we at that level yet? I know I'm not. Are you and your own? I'd hope so but knowing your limitations is far from being a weakness, a strength if anything. This argument holds water only as long as we are gaining.
Let the bridges we burn light the way.
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Icecream Audit Office Electus Matari
742
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Posted - 2017.03.21 16:38:09 -
[13] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:Nicely done, Ell. I especially like the frightened and confused younglings that don't know you well enough to read this in the right tone of voice, as it were. I quite enjoy the preaching to the choir.
Let the bridges we burn light the way.
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Icecream Audit Office Electus Matari
744
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Posted - 2017.03.21 19:49:04 -
[14] - Quote
Bjorn Tyrson wrote:So was this whole exercise an elaborate "I told you so" ? Well, partly, I confess, yes. It is sort of rewarding to hear Shakor's supporters now carefully explain the reasoning we always had for not fighting the war, and I am sort of glad they now understand. "I am sorry I called you a traitor and a coward" would be nicer if spoken more directly, but you work with what you got.
However, I also feel that time is now running out. I do not say so merely to call attention to a failed campaign promise. Those who remember me will remember that I am quite capable of swallowing my pride, if I feel it is necessary for the continued safety of our people. But now I sincerely fear we are losing ground rather than gaining it; have since the Ray's death and the events in Colelie.
We are pouring resources into a toy war, yet neglecting to push further when we can.
We have lost a lot of established institutions in a governmental change that has resulted in exactly nothing - not in our voices being heard better, not in any swifter resolution of issues. (It's proponents speak of it being 'traditional' but in doing so they have cast aside the whole of the Republic's history, forgetting that tradition is not book-learning about ancient ways, but the living, organically changing sum of all the previous generations. Doing it the same way we did thousands of years ago and ignoring all the generations between is not tradition - it's Scripture.)
We have lost a lot of our loyalists - those of Midular's and those of Shakor's.
I do not want peace. I never wanted peace.
I want victory.
And that is what Shakor promised to us; that is the one redeeming quality he might have had: the willingness to push forward on an opportune moment.
Let the bridges we burn light the way.
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Icecream Audit Office Electus Matari
744
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Posted - 2017.03.21 20:08:46 -
[15] - Quote
It is, of course, entirely possible that I am wrong.
Let the bridges we burn light the way.
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Icecream Audit Office Electus Matari
745
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Posted - 2017.03.21 21:52:50 -
[16] - Quote
No, sweetie; it was not me who mistook his rhetoric for actually meaning war. It was those people who supported him because of that.
Also, I am not angry. That's probably just your projection of your own frustrations on me. That theory is supported by the fact that you complain about me having simultaneously been away and caused some other people to disappear. Make up your mind and try to keep it logical.
Also, to keep this in the concrete: what work would you have me "embrace"? Piracy, as yourself?
Let the bridges we burn light the way.
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Icecream Audit Office Electus Matari
751
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Posted - 2017.03.21 22:15:34 -
[17] - Quote
Oh, and - if you doubt my relations with and my support to the Republic, maybe you need to double-check the alliance tag.
Let the bridges we burn light the way.
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Icecream Audit Office Electus Matari
757
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Posted - 2017.03.22 06:34:24 -
[18] - Quote
I am amazed by the sentiments that I am condemning the Republic here; moreover amazed that I receive such sentiments from pirates and hostiles. Have things really gone so bad that to disagree with Shakor's politics is considered traitorous in its own right? Is speaking against him now the worst crime we can perform?
That said; I will no longer answer personal attacks here. Let's talk about the message, not the messenger.
Challis Drant wrote:Please note Elsebeth is not a Diplomat for EM. ( Once I can convince her to stand for that again - oh I shall - I shall) Nope.
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:There seems to be a common misunderstanding of Ms Rhiannon's point vis a vis economic and military infrastructure - namely that it is entirely possible to be both improving relative to your position last year and falling behind compared to your enemy. Thank you.
Ayallah wrote:Where are these people? Who are you arguing against in this thread? That is indeed a good question and one I already asked in the thread, too. Where are those people? We had no shortage ten years ago, and let me assure you, the loyalists then did not (if I say so myself) just up and pack their bags because someone disagreed with them and said so with no uncertain terms.
Mebrithiel Ju'wien wrote:I, for one, welcome my Elsebeth overlord! Nope to that too.
Let the bridges we burn light the way.
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Icecream Audit Office Electus Matari
757
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Posted - 2017.03.22 08:27:38 -
[19] - Quote
Elmund Egivand wrote:Not to mention the Emancipation happened, which, while very likely an attempt to politically embarrass the Republic, also opens up the possibility that the Empire is open to a more peaceful method of ending the Republic's long gripe against the Empire. Then throw in the fact that the current Empress was formerly of a servitor bloodline and is also a mercantile power, the likelihood for a peaceful resolution through negotiations and possibly very shady backroom dealings seems to be even greater than ever before. Such optimism is refreshing in this galaxy. I wish I could share it.
If you allow me to continue that spirit of international respect, I would, in fact, be very interested in hearing Admiral (is it still 'Admiral'?) Blake's comments on this one. Do you see a peaceful solution an achievable goal, given the current government?
Let the bridges we burn light the way.
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Icecream Audit Office Electus Matari
766
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Posted - 2017.03.23 11:11:25 -
[20] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:House Tash-Murkon. It is amusing how much faith you put in a house that has none. Nice to know I am not the only one in the galaxy with complex loyalty issues.
Let the bridges we burn light the way.
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Icecream Audit Office Electus Matari
776
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Posted - 2017.03.30 18:56:41 -
[21] - Quote
Luna Hanaya wrote:No war. Shakorites go home. I believe they all mostly already did.
Let the bridges we burn light the way.
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Icecream Audit Office Electus Matari
776
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Posted - 2017.03.31 14:40:35 -
[22] - Quote
Can I kindly ask this thread will not be turned into another debate whether circumstances exist in which Diana Kim should not be murdered? Because I am really, really not convinced we need another one, and I am trying to talk about the Republic (and, ok, well, a little bit about the Empire), here.
Let the bridges we burn light the way.
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Icecream Audit Office Electus Matari
776
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Posted - 2017.03.31 14:43:21 -
[23] - Quote
Look, a whole thread about Kim! Go there! Have fun!
This thread does not concern her or the State.
Let the bridges we burn light the way.
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Icecream Audit Office Electus Matari
781
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Posted - 2017.03.31 18:34:18 -
[24] - Quote
I find it extremely unlikely that we can accomplish anything by people trying to argue that enslaving our kin is justified and we should just, like, you know, ignore it, because hey, they probably did something to deserve it.
But I have to admit such arguments are in fact relevant to this thread, so please, go on. I'll be close by, making popcorn.
Let the bridges we burn light the way.
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Icecream Audit Office Electus Matari
784
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Posted - 2017.03.31 19:43:50 -
[25] - Quote
That is absolutely nonsense. I know no news about raiding parties will turn your head, but at least you have to realize that there's slaves born into slavery. Jamyl freed 9th generation and over, but lower generations remain. It is also unclear whether those reaching ninth will be freed in the future, or if this will remain a gesture.
Also, the last time when the Empire was in an outright war to subdue a population was when the Minmatar Republic was born. That was, as has been pointed out in this thread, less than 200 years ago and in living memory.
Let the bridges we burn light the way.
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Icecream Audit Office Electus Matari
787
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Posted - 2017.04.01 07:53:16 -
[26] - Quote
I would also point out that even if it is true that the Empire is not currently pursuing a Reclaiming War, the idea of slavery as a way to salvation that the Amarr have a moral duty to offer to "lesser races" is still very much canon in the Amarrian religion. A temporary political decision not to openly pursue that duty by war is great for those who wish to have peace, but it is hardly the same thing as having forever set aside plans to do so in the future.
Let the bridges we burn light the way.
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Icecream Audit Office Electus Matari
789
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Posted - 2017.04.02 13:26:10 -
[27] - Quote
Maria Daphiti wrote:PIE stands for the Law and the Empire. PIE would throw a party and commit a mortal sin by drinking themselves senseless in celebration, if the war of reclamation started tonight.
Upholding the law does not always mean you believe in it.
I should know.
Let the bridges we burn light the way.
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Icecream Audit Office Electus Matari
790
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Posted - 2017.04.14 09:28:44 -
[28] - Quote
Nice theory, Jenneth, but no, that's not what I meant.
Valat kalleimmatkin lailla virvatulten häviää
On polte suudelmain vain harhaa häipyvää
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Icecream Audit Office Electus Matari
790
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Posted - 2017.04.14 15:34:44 -
[29] - Quote
That is excellent political analysis.
However, current government hijacked their position on the grounds that war is a viable solution. Changes made in our system were intended to support that position.
If the war is not coming, we should definitely in the very least go back to the organization of the Republic that was geared for industrial growth and strengthening the nation, and stop pouring resources to a toy war. Wasting our time and resources in playing war is having the worst of both worlds, and serves only to make sure we will lose in the end.
Valat kalleimmatkin lailla virvatulten häviää
On polte suudelmain vain harhaa häipyvää
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Icecream Audit Office Electus Matari
808
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Posted - 2017.04.26 07:12:27 -
[30] - Quote
Why, Lok'ri, I have totally not missed you either.
Still, that must be the sweetest thing you've ever said to me.
Valat kalleimmatkin lailla virvatulten häviää
On polte suudelmain vain harhaa häipyvää
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Icecream Audit Office Electus Matari
808
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Posted - 2017.04.26 08:19:23 -
[31] - Quote
Gaven Lok'ri wrote:Who said I didn't miss you? Having an opponent with some class is a welcome change from the Blooders and Shakorites that I usually deal with.
I must say it has been amusing watching people who don't know you try to figure out what you were getting at. You say the nicest things.
I look forward to seeing you in space, then.
Valat kalleimmatkin lailla virvatulten häviää
On polte suudelmain vain harhaa häipyvää
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Icecream Audit Office Electus Matari
808
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Posted - 2017.04.26 11:35:21 -
[32] - Quote
Gaven Lok'ri wrote:You know where I live. I would be happy to shoot you for old times sake. Not for the current times, Admiral?
Have you lost your faith in the toy war?
Valat kalleimmatkin lailla virvatulten häviää
On polte suudelmain vain harhaa häipyvää
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Icecream Audit Office Electus Matari
808
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Posted - 2017.04.26 12:03:41 -
[33] - Quote
Gaven Lok'ri wrote:Well, given that I ran into your people attacking imperial territory alongside the Matari Militia today, I guess we can kill each other for current time's sake as well.
The "toy" war is doing it's job. The drain on Shakorite resources helps prevents future surprise attacks, which is worth the effort and expense.
Now if you want to talk about working towards actual peace and are willing to reform the Matari state in a way that makes such a peace sustainable, then maybe we could talk about not killing each other for current time's sake.
I heard of that. And yes, I suspect we will, though I would personally prefer otherwise.
I am open to hearing all suggestions to what I, personally, could do to bring up peace. As you so bluntly point out, the current situation is not working in our advantage; however, the price you are paying is very high, too. Maybe peace would be best for all.
Valat kalleimmatkin lailla virvatulten häviää
On polte suudelmain vain harhaa häipyvää
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Icecream Audit Office Electus Matari
808
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Posted - 2017.04.26 13:58:25 -
[34] - Quote
I have neither the authority nor the will to negotiate a peace between EM and PIE. Any such talks would have to follow government decisions to disarm - not precede them.
As to governments - "just get rid of the absurdity". If it only was for lack of trying.
Valat kalleimmatkin lailla virvatulten häviää
On polte suudelmain vain harhaa häipyvää
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Icecream Audit Office Electus Matari
813
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Posted - 2017.04.27 04:49:16 -
[35] - Quote
Thank you for all the interesting replies. I had chalked this thread up as drowned on IGS, but apparently quality on page 9 is still possible in this world.
Here's a recap on my position in short, for those confused about it:
1) The Minmatar Republic is still likely too weak to win over the Amarr Empire in a full-out war. 2) However, this is not at all certain; there might be a chance if we pushed now. 3) Every day we waste in the Militia wars is a day in our disadvantage. We are smaller than the Empire, so we lose more in proportion in the resources poured into the carnage. 4) Therefore, we should either go out full time or stop this toy war. 5) Shakor usurped power on the promises of a fight. He should stand by those promises, or if he cannot, give power back to those who know how to build.
While I thank Admiral Lok'ri for the kind and no doubt completely charitable and not at all self-serving suggestion for aid in a civil war, I do not think civil war is the solution, either. It would be an even greater drain on resources and an open invitation for the Empire to invade.
I should probably also stress at this point, that I do not speak for Electus Matari. I could not, I do not want to, and no one in EM has proposed that I do. Reasons should likely be obvious by now.
Else
PS. I know this is a lost fight, but please, if you insist on formal address, could you use "Captain Rhiannon"? "Ms" and "Miss" have connotations that are, like, really off in my culture?
Valat kalleimmatkin lailla virvatulten häviää
On polte suudelmain vain harhaa häipyvää
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Icecream Audit Office Electus Matari
813
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Posted - 2017.04.27 04:58:21 -
[36] - Quote
(EDIT: Actually never mind. This is not a discussion that belongs to the public anymore.)
Valat kalleimmatkin lailla virvatulten häviää
On polte suudelmain vain harhaa häipyvää
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Icecream Audit Office Electus Matari
813
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Posted - 2017.04.27 09:44:45 -
[37] - Quote
Also, I should add,
6) The policies of the current Empress are not very relevant for a long-term solution. While she might play it nice and not pose an immediate threat (which remains to be seen), as we have seen, reigns can be surprisingly short-lived. As long as Reclaiming by force is in the books as a potential canonical solution to "bringing lesser races to God", the Empire is and remains a threat. It would take a complete cultural shift and a total reform of the Faith in the Empire for this threat to pass completely.
Valat kalleimmatkin lailla virvatulten häviää
On polte suudelmain vain harhaa häipyvää
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
SoE Roughriders Electus Matari
879
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Posted - 2017.05.10 06:26:56 -
[38] - Quote
ValentinaDLM wrote:I know I am late to the party, but I think the "toy war" is useful in preventing all out war by instigated by capsuleers I completely agree with the Militia Act in its time having been a rather clever move to prevent a full-scale escalation.
The problem is that as it goes on, it is a resource sink and a war of attrition, and such wars hurt the small nation worse than the bigger one. The Militia Act is designed to hurt each side equally, to be "balanced" in what we can and cannot do. But that balance is regarding capsuleer forces - it ignores the fact that counting systems and baseliners, we are far from balanced to begin with.
The Amarr Empire can keep this up until we are weakened enough to conquer. We cannot hope to do the same. |
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